Gaining Traction through Goal Setting - Michael Burdell | Ep 10

Caleb Roth  
Well, welcome to episode 10 of the Stacking Habits podcast. This is an in person interview. So one of the luxuries that we're trying to do is once a quarter meet up in person and actually have some, I guess we call it skin to skin time, so today's guests is another Notre Dame connection. So Notre Dame alum, our last guest, Dr. Adam, Dell currently teaches there. So depending on how this one goes, we may have to also start fishing in that pond more and more. There you go. Today's guest is Michael bardell. We are down in the Phoenix area. And we kind of hunt for guests in two different ways. One, we try to find a habit, let's say cold plunge, and then we'll go find an expert in that space and bring them in, or my favorite is to just find interesting people, and then sort of pick and prod at what are the habits that cause them to be effective. So Michael, you fit that latter category, we belong to a same kind of a networking group, we kind of crossed paths there. And I saw that you ran a night golf company. I'm a huge golf nut. So that was all I needed to know to pick up the phone and call you. And of the six people I tried to reach out to, you're the only one that said yes. And that's, that's a little bit of the habit we're gonna we're gonna dig into. So as we kick things off, why don't you just introduce yourself, briefly talk about your background in sales. And then we'll just kind of dig into some of your habits that got you to where you are today.

Michael Burdell  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks again for having me, Caleb and Matthew and David. I really appreciate it. Yeah. So I'm Michael Berdahl. I'm 35 years old. I have a wife and two kids out here in Arizona. I have a four year old boy named Jack and an almost two year old named Clark and they love golf like I do. So I stumbled into this opportunity, which we'll talk about how I got there running Arizona night golf, which is a company that is trying to install lights on golf courses so people can play at night. So this isn't glow golf with the little hard rock tight balls. This is real golf at night, pretty prevalent in kind of the Middle East. There's about 60 courses here in the US. But there were none in Arizona until about two weeks ago, and the first one launched here. We can talk about that. But yeah, that's that's what I'm working on right now. And happy to kind of tell my story of how I got there. And my whole thing is creating opportunities. I really am interested in setting habits of finding opportunities, seeking them out and then just going for it. So

Caleb Roth  
love it. Well, we had a night golf course in Indiana close to where I where I grew up, and it was perfect in the summer because it's so hot, so humid. And something that my favorite time to play golf is that hour before dusk, right? Everything calms down and gets a little cooler. Feels like you know the golf ball doesn't quite fly as far but it's just a perfect time to be with your thoughts are with a buddy. And unfortunately that one went out of business. So hopefully, I know Arizona gets blazing hot Matthew lives here. Yeah. So that should be pretty good market. Let's dive in a little bit because I want a little bit of debate because I love the fact you did your pre research. You listen to several episodes. So you love the Joe G episode on personal finance. If you haven't listened to that one, go give that a listen. It's number eight talks about a 29 year old teacher who's has a net worth of a million bucks already. So you love financial habits. You were a financial planner. I believe right out of college.

Michael Burdell  
I was I was a financial advisor with Edward Jones knocking on people's doors. Okay, talking about how I got there first. Yeah, just a little bit. Yeah, well dive in. So back in middle school and early high school, I went through a phase blink one a two phase. Yes. You guys familiar? Yeah, worse, right. They're back. They just put out new Robin by the way. And so I started getting a little rebellious trying to feel out you know what you can do with all your freedom as a teenager and picked up a guitar and actually tried to sneak to a blink 182 concert that was not allowed to go to when I was 14 years old. My dad caught me right before the car left. My friend's dad was supposed to take us and I got intercepted and grounded for like my whole life. And but yeah, I went through a little phase where I'm like, Alright, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of go against the grain and grow my hair out and play guitar and have some fun. But baseball was my whole life up and up to that point. And so I got into high school and I had long hair and we were brand new high school with this like young energetic like 20 something year old baseball coach and he said anyone who makes his team has to have you know, militant type short hair. And I was like, man, Scott, he said that just for me. And so I long story short I didn't make the team and I kind of was like really bummed because I was really good at baseball my own mind and you know, had made it well, you didn't make the team because of your hair. No, he just kind of warned that but I think it was kind of like an attitude thing. You know, I just didn't want the guy with the long hair on on the team. It wasn't what he was going for. Do

Caleb Roth  
you have against long hair,

Michael Burdell  
I have nothing against it. I love it. I love like the locks. So anyway, I kind of went into like this, okay, fine. If I can't do the thing I really love I'm just going to kind of shut off from all the extracurriculars that you can do in high school, you know, I'm not going to do student government, I'm not going to do this or that or the other. So I really kind of dove into like this little counterculture of, of the cool kids who played music and so I started a band and had a lip ring and long hair and the whole thing, and it was awesome. But I still kept my grades up because I did have ambitions to like go to a good college and things like that. So I was like a fake cool kid, you know, but it was fun. And I didn't do too much in high school. I just kind of went with it still got good grades still took good classes. But other than that, it was like, Alright, I'm not, I'm not going to play the game, you know, I'm not going to do it.

Caleb Roth  
So real quick apart from being grounded for your life. So Michael's Mom and Dad, if you're watching, he's out of the house right now. So I don't know if you want to bring it back. But apart from that, did your parents push back a lot on your rebellion? Or did they just kind of let you kind of have some some room? For High

Michael Burdell  
School? They were like, what is wrong? Why are you purposely getting like DS and C's in your classes, and I was like, because it doesn't matter. Like it's not gonna go on a transcript, I'm an eighth grade, it doesn't matter. And that's why I got grounded and couldn't go to the blink concert in the first place. But then in high school, they're like, alright, as long as you like, we had to deal like had to get good grades, I had to do a couple other things that like, as long as you're like keeping up your end of the bargain, and doing the high school thing, the right way will will allow your little rebellion rebellious stage, my dad went with me to the tattoo shop, do my lip pierced because I met all my criteria. And I was like, This is so lame, like gonna get a piercing with my dad. But But yeah, you know, I made it through. So I made it through high school, like, not too many extracurriculars. But then I got into my dream school, which was Notre Dame, my dad went there. So that's kind of the school I always wanted to go to. And once I got in, I didn't think I would get in but I was lucky enough to I got admitted, I said, you know, I'm going to kind of shift gears and change and just do everything I can and fully immerse myself and you know, I have this opportunity, it's a really good opportunity, I want to get involved to the maximum extent that I can. Um, so that was kind of my mindset going in Notre Dame. So cut my hair did the whole thing like grew up a little bit, you know, that time to move on. And so I got involved in student government, I did Boxing Club, they have a really cool boxing club called bangle belts there. So I started boxing, never did that before, had two or three jobs. The coolest one was a tour guide, because I just fell in love with that place and love to share it with others and kind of tell the Notre Dame story and walk around and meet cool people. So I got to do that. Which kind of led me on a whole life trajectory that we can get to. I went and studied abroad in London, and made some great friends there. And speaking of opportunities, one of our one of our things we did in London, we took little weekend trip to Barcelona, Spain, and my friend convinced me to buy a puppy for a day before we had to fly home. So we bought a puppy for 20 Euro from a homeless man, not rent a puppy buy a lot. I was very reluctant. I was like, Hey, we don't need to buy a puppy where we gotta get on a flight and 12 hours. He's like, No, we gotta buy a puppy. So we bought a puppy for 20 bucks, played with it all day, and then sold it for 100 and flew home flipping business. So there's the entrepreneurial spirit, I guess, just did you know, you could sell it for 100 when you bought it now, it's actually a crazy story that could take an hour itself. We don't need to go there. But but we had a sign saying 100 euro and everyone's like, No, we're not. You know, we're all tourists in Spain who buys a puppy. That's insane. So but then right before we had to leave, some girl ran up to us. And she's like, I got the money from my parents, I really want this puppy. Here's your 100 Euro. kind of bad, but it was 100 bucks. We were broke at the cheap for a puppy. So anyway, I did as much as I could in real sports. I did a sales internship as well. And that's when I learned that was pretty naturally gifted at sales. I was just selling ad space for our university directory phonebook. There were five of us on our sales team. And I eclipsed the other four combined in how much we sold that summer. And I was like top five in the country out of 500 kids who did this around the country, because I could just walk into a small business and kind of tell them, you know, I just had a good compelling pitch. And I got a lot of people to sign up. And I was like, this is pretty cool. I think this is going to be my career. So

Caleb Roth  
teach you how or give you a script or you you literally just figured it out.

Michael Burdell  
No, I mean, it's just a little summer internship, like little 10 week program, they said, Here's what you're selling, here's the prices of everything, you gotta go talk to business owners and follow up and collect the money. And they gave us the process. But it wasn't like sales training. It's like figure it out. So I was able to figure it out, I kind of cracked that nut. And as we alluded to, I'm a huge golfer. So my goal was to sell as much as I could the first half of the day, and then go play nine holes in the afternoon. And so I figured out, hey, sales is what I want to do, because I can do that. So then after school, I got my first job at Edward Jones, which is a financial, I was a financial advisor. And it was 2010. So it was about two years after the financial crash. And I'm a 22 year old I wanted to open an office in Phoenix, Arizona, because I kind of grew up in Arizona. So I came out here. And their whole model is they're kind of like the State Farm model. You have to be like the friendly neighborhood adviser and you open the little local office and you introduce yourself to everybody in the neighborhood. And you do that by literally knocking on doors. So it's not like Cutco knives, door to door salesman, but it's pretty close from a 22 year old wearing a suit and a tie out and like 110 degree Arizona summers knocking on people's doors after financial collapse, saying when you invest your life savings with me with a young kid, right? Yep. And so that was probably as tough of a sales pitch just like you can come up with but I got really good at that too. It's just a numbers game and you know, it's talking to people and creating those opportunities and not letting fear just kind of get in your head and you know, you get rejected 99 times out of 100 but it's just like Alright, keep going and, you know, there's financial incentives to kind of push me and things like that, but that was kind of my start into this whole sales arena.

David Chung  
Well me ask you this when you were going door to door suit and tie 110 degrees. Did you still have your lip piercing and your hair down? No,

Michael Burdell  
I took it out. Yeah, a little skin color plug in the lip and you know, put my hair in a bun. I'm just kidding. I was past that stage at that point. But it was fun. So I did it for 16 months, and that I got like Rookie of the Year for our little region and had some good accolades. I earned an office and an assistant, but I wasn't making any money. So you know, some of your other guests, especially Mike McCarthy, in the first episode talked about a goal board for your family. I'm huge into goal setting. I think that's just so essential to getting what you want done. You know, I think what you track materialises and keeping score matters and things like that. And I wasn't hitting some my goals with this first job at Edward Jones, especially financially, I was working my tail off, I was doing everything they asked hitting all my benchmarks, but I was making like 40,000 bucks a year. And I was like, alright, this isn't really going to do it. And then I also had some personal stuff, missing my family back in the Midwest, and I was like, I need to, I need to shift gears here and kinda to achieve my goals. So after about 16 months, I left my first job out of college, and I reached out to my mentor, who I met through giving tours Notre Dame, um, so I gave it to her at Notre Dame, um, through the visitor center. And then this gentleman 30 years, my senior, he was coming in for his class reunion. And he reached out to the visitor center and said, I want a Notre Dame student to bartend for my, my class. And so they reached out to me since I was an employee there, and they're like, Hey, do you want to do this? And I said, Absolutely. That sounds awesome. You know, I'd love to sit around with 50 year olds as a 20 year old and give them beer all night. That sounded fun to me. And so I did and actually met this gentleman through that. And he was like, the coolest guy just so nice and caring and genuine. And like I said, 30 years, my senior, and he kept in touch with me, and I kept in touch with him. And so when I went to make my career change after that first job, I reached out to him and I said, How do I do this? You know, it's a lot easier when you're in college, and there's Career Fairs and things like that. But here's I'm trying to accomplish, he said, alright, well, I have a pretty good network. And I'm fairly, you know, high up in this one company, why don't you pass your resume along, and I'll see if there's something we can do for you. I said, Okay, I want to stay in sales. And so that got me into the healthcare field, he worked at a company called All Scripts. And so I started out there as an account manager, they said, do that for a year and a half, we'll move you into sales. But first, you got to do some learning. So I did that, and moved into sales did really well there. And then after about four years at that company, I decided it was time to make another strategic move, you know, just career growth, I was doing really well and still thought there were bigger solutions I could sell. So I, you know, continued to accelerate my career and went to a big company called optim. They're part of UnitedHealth Group, I started selling financial software to hospitals. And with any sales role, you really have to kind of create your own opportunities. You know, again, it's not, it was a lot easier than knocking on people's doors, but you're still knocking on C level executives at health systems, begging for their time and trying to pitch your case. So I got pretty good at that. I'm pretty used to it. And while I was at optimum, I also got an MBA, which is very unlike my personality, because I didn't really like I like learning, but I didn't like school. I didn't like the structure school and just adding another thing. But I was like, you know, if I, how old? Were you at this point? Probably 2525. Like when you decided to get your MBA? Yeah, about 26? Probably, wow, six. Yeah. And I don't know what kind of pushed me to do that. But I was like, you know, let's go meet some new people. Let's not get stuck here. I want to do sales leadership and keep advancing. So I just did that. It was Executive MBA, I did it while I was working. And then once I got that MBA, my wife and I also got married, and we said, hey, we want to change your pace. We want to relocate. Let's pick the coolest place in the country and move there and try to make a life. So you moved to Denver. So we moved to didn't know we moved to San Diego, but Denver would have been cool San Diego. That's pretty cool. I

David Chung  
love San Diego. Yeah. So we

Michael Burdell  
did that. So I told my company, hey, I want to move to San Diego. And they said, Okay, well, we'll retain you and find a place for you in San Diego and fresh off my MBA, fresh off my wedding vows. We go straight to San Diego and we put down some roots, we lived in a little bungalow, little 600 square foot place right next to the beach. And it was really fun. We had some some great times there. And then after about six months, I got reached out to by a recruiter, and I really wasn't looking for a job change. I was pretty happy where I was. And so I ignored it. And the same guy reached out to me a second time a couple of weeks later, and I ignored it. And he reached out to me a third time. And he's like, I really, really like your background. I'm not just like, you know, blanket mailing, you can please talk and I said okay, sure. And so I was open to a conversation, but didn't think I was going to do anything. But it led to my next job, which was a VP of sales at a really small company owned by a private equity firm, kind of a niche market. And I decided to take it because I you know did have that. I want that leadership experience. And that's kind of why I got the MBA and I wanted to build a sales team and I was able to do all that I got to hire people build comp plans, build our go to market strategy, I was responsible for all the revenue in the company. And so I did that for three and a half years. And it came to a unfortunately like a pretty ugly ending. Which I was not used to But I was doing really well for the company. And my boss just kept slashing my pay and slashing my commissions, which is normal with a sales role. But they kept asking me to take on more responsibility. And then they cut my comp by 50%. And I was like, I can't do that anymore, because I was making pretty good money at that point. I was like, alright, this isn't really working out. So it was a good time, my wife and I had our second kid on the way. And I was like, I think it's time for me to kind of launch my own thing, you know, kind of go go on my own. So I moved to Scottsdale Arizona, which is where I kind of grew up. And I had, my parents are out here. And like I said, we had boy number two on the way. So we wanted a family help. And I was like, it's a good time to just make a bunch of changes at once. So left that company made a move, have the second kid and launched Arizona like golf, because I just saw a huge market year for night golf, like you spoke about, you know, it's so hot in the summer that it's probably nicer to play golf at night. And then the winter could start here about 515. So plenty of hours to do that. So I didn't know anything about the lighting industry. All I knew was this should be here. And it's not here. And there's about 69 golf courses in the country. But none in Arizona. Why is that? So I set up a little LLC and a website and some marketing materials. And I started knocking on doors and golf courses, just like I was at Edward Jones pretty much. And I'd get the meetings and I have what I think is a pretty good business model where I front the cost of everything, and just park profit share with them on all the rounds played at night. And I got some golf courses that were really into that. The only unfortunate thing was I was a few months late to the whole game here. Because in the background, which I didn't know about at the time, there's another company making a deal with the City of Tempe to open the first night, of course in Tempe. And that just opened about two weeks ago. And it's been awesome to see I haven't played it yet. But I really want to. But I'm still working with a couple courses here in Arizona. And I'm getting reached out to you all the time. I just got a really cool email two days ago from a course in Texas, and they want me to light their golf course. So I'm thinking there's really good opportunity throughout the country, like you alluded to, there used to be one in Indiana and there's not anymore. And I've had some really cool discussions with people that now I have a pretty unique product where I can take a really good sophisticated sports light and put a solar panel on it. So you don't have to trench and dig electrical throughout a whole Golf Course, which is going to be a pretty good differentiator. And yeah, I'm pretty bullish on the whole idea. That's kind of where I am right now.

Caleb Roth  
Well, in Indiana too. We only can play golf seven, maybe eight months out of the year. And so you're able to extend the useful part of that asset of the of the actual lands by getting more hours and more rounds. So that's that's genius.

Michael Burdell  
Thanks. Yeah, I hope it takes off. Like I said, it's big in the Middle East and how it was just always being open to different ideas and creating your own opportunities. I keep coming back to that, but that's really what's got me to this point. Throughout each one of those stops that we just talked about. It's always been Is it time to make a change? Should I entertain this change? Am I achieving my goals I have written down for myself and if not, is it something that's on me or is it just the circumstance I need to change that circumstance? So being able to pivot when you need to? It's got me got me here it's been pretty fun and I really pretty bullish on the night golfing. I think it's gonna take off

David Chung  
I think I already know the title for this episode from puppies to Potter's okay, but Okay, so on a more serious note, do you have a history of entrepreneurship in your family? Like, did you have people who are starting their own businesses,

Michael Burdell  
not my family, but a couple of my friends. Okay. So I got to, you know, I'm fortunate enough to have a really cool network and met some great people throughout my career and at Notre Dame, and I have a couple of friends who've gone on their own. So that's been great to bounce some ideas off of them. And that rubbed

David Chung  
off on you. And that's when you were like, I'm going to take the plunge and start this thing. I

Michael Burdell  
think honestly, like it was more the corporate world sour grapes. I think you guys talked about like your episode together about being free from the corporate shackles and doing your own thing that really resonated with me, I had really good corporate experiences up until that that last little in there. But I was like, you know, I don't want to work for someone like that. Again, I didn't have a very good experience. So I want to do something on my own and kind of set my own hours. Now, from scratch.

David Chung  
How long ago? Did you start Arizona nickel two years ago, okay, two years ago, so I feel like you're like, far enough in Where do you feel like you were somewhat naive, starting the business, like you thought it was gonna be a lot easier? Or was it about as easy as you thought it was gonna be?

Michael Burdell  
So I was fortunate enough that I didn't have to create revenue, like from day one, I had like a decent runway. And I said, Okay, you know, let's see, let's do our due diligence. And let's go to market and see if there's an appetite for this. And so I just kind of put the pieces together one by one. And there wasn't appetite for it. Most golf courses said yes. Hey, risk free, financial risk free, you're gonna do everything. I just have to say yes. And then give you a chunk of the change here. So yeah, it's just been kind of trial and error. I don't think it's been easy by any means. I think the biggest thing is making sure that you can pass all the light ordinances that cities have in place and different municipalities have in place especially in Arizona, where most of the courses are aligned with houses so it hasn't been easy. It's been ups and downs and frustration and Chai keep doing this or, or not, but these opportunities keep popping up. And people keep saying hey, we really want this for our course. Can we can we look at it together. And so yeah, it's it's been challenging, but I wouldn't I didn't know What to expect I didn't have an expectation. So it wasn't harder than I thought. But it's been it's been a ride. It's been fun.

Matthew Osborn  
Looking back, are you happy went and got that master's degree? Did you see value from it after finishing it? Or is that? Yeah, yeah,

Michael Burdell  
great question. It was an executive MBA. So it wasn't a full time thing. So I don't think I built the relationships that I anticipated building as much I have much stronger friends for my undergrad school than my MBA. But that did get me that that last job I had. And I meticulously track things like my net worth, like God spoke about. And that got me to financial independence, that last job, so I was only there three and a half years, but without my MBA credential, I wouldn't been able to land that job. And that's really what kind of accelerated my path and enabled me to get the opportunity to take two years to build a company without revenue. So So yes, I'm glad I got it.

Caleb Roth  
Do you hope that the night golf thing will be the next 10 years for you? Because you've sort of bounced every two to three is what it sounds like? Yes. Is that like something you enjoy? And you want to try something for three to five years at a time? And then switch gears? So we're is this something where you see a really long runway? Yeah, great

Michael Burdell  
question. It's been so fun to build, I hope it takes off, it's going to kind of depend on the next like year, I'd say, if we get a couple up and running, then it's going to be a long term thing. And I'm going to try to grow it and expand it and go nationally. But I think it's really just we have proof of concept now here in Arizona, and there's some others and throughout the country that I was not a part of, I think it's going to take off, I'm really close. And so if it does, it'll be a long term thing. But if not, then in a year off, you know, cut bait and try something else. Love it another opportunity.

David Chung  
So I work for people like Caleb, but for people like me who have a tough time finding the ball, even during the day, that's the the dark ones, we've

Caleb Roth  
got to be getting there with technology where there's going to be a sensor in the ball. And it's just going to tell you where it is like,

David Chung  
just get the sensor to go straight go straight. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh,

Caleb Roth  
kind of control the spin rate? And it's it's kind of, you know, fuzzy, but does it

Matthew Osborn  
affect the ball too much is that we don't do centers and golf balls was priced golf,

Caleb Roth  
hasn't it? We'll try. It's not it's not as good. Like, there's you're trying to get that efficiency into the golf ball. Oh, they're rolling the ball back. So at some centers, do it, let it let it go.

Michael Burdell  
I saw there is a company that does that they check your golf ball. And you can get a little app No, like beep at you. And you're close to it. But it's like a rock and it's expensive. And they don't play well in there. Yeah,

David Chung  
I do. I lose three of them anyway.

Caleb Roth  
Yeah, you're sick of losing $5 golf balls. $5 golf balls. Well, Michael, thanks for laying out the backgrounds. I know for me, so I want to kind of dig in right now to the habits short. So there's some habits that have been sort of similar that have carried you all the way through like a lot of different sales jobs. And I'm sure you've had to just apply different habits along the way as well. So what, as you kind of zoom out for a second, what are some of the habits that have kind of shared across all the different roles that you've had? Yeah,

Michael Burdell  
great question. And a lot of them have been discussed on your guys previous episodes. So without going too far into the weeds goal setting is the biggest one. I think, like, like Mike McCarthy said, you know, if you want to do something, write it down. If you really want to do something, hang it up. I think that rings so true. I've always done that. I make goals on a daily basis, just like you know, here's my to do list, but then also on a quarterly basis, annual basis, long term basis, things like that. And I'll have personal goals, professional goals and business goals and professional business are different professionals, kind of what I want to grow into and what I'm trying to achieve professionally long term. business goals are here's what I want to accomplish for my business this quarter. So that those three tranches, and like I said, quarterly, annual and long term for all of those. That's been the biggest one. How long term? Are

Caleb Roth  
you talking? Five years? 10 years? Five years? Yeah.

Michael Burdell  
And then I think one of you alluded to putting on pants is a big one to get your day started. So you don't feel like you're working from home or on an island, like really putting on a belt. That goes

Caleb Roth  
a David quote, I feel kind of doesn't sound like me.

Matthew Osborn  
I remember we talked about that, though. Just getting ready for the day. And even if you're at home working, just presenting yourself, like you're gonna go out and change your mindset. Yeah, for sure. So

Michael Burdell  
I have a home office. And that's, that's work for me, you know, the rest of my house is my house. And I try not to bounce around too much. I'll go to the kitchen and get a seltzer or something like that. But when I'm in that room, I'm working, and I'm dressed for the day. And I'm not just like, Okay, I'm gonna go check my emails while I'm in my, you know, basketball shorts. And I think it's really like kind of prepping, getting in that mindset and being like, this is work. Rest of my house is my house. That was really instrumental for me. This has nothing to do with those professional habits. But one habit, I started January 1, was doing 50 pushups and 50 setups a day every day. I like that. And I challenged six of my best college buddies to do it with me. And for him said yes to him said no. And of the four of them, two of them lasted more than like a month. And then one of them dropped off after like three months, and there's one still doing it with me. It's a really, it doesn't sound hard, but it's so hard to do something like that every single day. And that kind of starts my day for me and I'm like, alright, you have money on the line. There's no money, it's just bragging rights. And he's a very accomplished guy that I really respect and he's like a CrossFit and he's always talking about fitness and stuff and don't do any of that stuff. And so I just like beating him because he's like, Hey, look, I want CrossFit. Remember the month and I'm like, I'm gonna Email your CrossFit gym and say that I'm beating you in our pushup contest and you're not even came to your setups every day. So beating

Caleb Roth  
that you've done it every day or you're doing more a day now than he is. So he

Michael Burdell  
skips a day and they will make it up the next day. You can cheat a little bit. That doesn't mean I've been consistent. You're the winner. I'm the winner. Berta, here he is the winner. Thank you.

David Chung  
Have you noticed a difference in time, like when you first started versus now? Are you faster at it? Or do you feel stronger?

Michael Burdell  
It's still kind of like a Have you heard the expression? Like eat your green frog first? Yeah, like means do the thing that you really did? Yeah, it does have to be green. And so that's still kind of like my frog every day is like, Oh, I have to do these push ups and sit ups. But I do it. And Alec starts my day. And jumpstarts me, it just gets me in that mindset of, Alright, I'm ready to achieve things today. Like I can do tasks. It hasn't gotten significantly easier. But it's it's just part of my day. Now. It's just like, Alright, here's what we'll do. So now I still think it set up some push ups. But it's a fun challenge. It's almost New Year's, you guys could try it out next year. Are you going to quit at the end of the year? I'm going to do a different exercise regimen next year. So yes, I'm going to quit, but I'm going to replace it with something healthy.

Caleb Roth  
Perfect. Yeah. Going back to the goals do you do you have like an annual or a quarterly thing on your calendar where you set aside a certain day or a morning? Like how do you actually fit that into the rhythm of the year? Yeah.

Michael Burdell  
So I'm big into scheduling. I think you guys spoke about that on your personal episode as well, me if it's not on the calendar, it doesn't exist. Exactly. So there used to be time set aside when I was at previous companies where I said, Alright, it's time for your quarterly business review where you had to put some time together. And that's why I would do my goals for that stuff. But now that I'm not in the corporate world anymore, I just do set aside our end of the month is right here. So a couple days before let's let's plan out what we're going to do next quarter, let's reflect on how we've done and the reflection things huge to you have to look at that not just at the end of each quarter, but throughout each quarter and each year to make sure you're on track. And that's still attainable. And if not, why? What am I doing wrong? Do I need to pivot make changes, things like that. So I think that's probably the biggest thing is goal setting and making a habit of staying on track and holding yourself accountable. But yes, have to schedule it? Have you read traction?

Unknown Speaker  
No.

Matthew Osborn  
Really good. You're

Caleb Roth  
already doing everything. And especially their big thing is rocks, but also setting up those rhythms. Okay, so the rocks, you've heard the analogy, if you put sand in a jar, yep. And then you try and put little pebbles in the big rocks you can't write it's already full for that. And so instead you say, what are the big things I want to do? And Matthew, correct me if I'm wrong, you've you've read it probably more times than I have. But put the big rocks in first identify what those big goals are for the year, and then everything else can just fill in around that. And then you'll have a meaningful year just by nature of picking one or two or three big rocks to actually accomplish.

David Chung  
We we've implemented traction in two of our businesses. And it's been a game changer for me, especially like, sort of overseeing both these companies and figuring out how to split my time equally. It really helps you prioritize, and sort of it's like the rocks principle, right? So you're just focusing on the big things first, and then everything sort of sorts itself out. So I highly recommend it to anyone out there.

Caleb Roth  
Yeah, why not? Go ahead.

Matthew Osborn  
I'm gonna say one thing. This is on the topic. But so I've read traction, a couple of extra reading through traction right now. But one thing I didn't know about, until this last time reading is they have another book. It's not called traction, but it's a much thinner pamphlet, basically, for your employees to read, that demonstrate the process as an employee level

David Chung  
would need to be called what is EOS? Or what the heck is EOS is what the heck is EOS I read that I gave it to some of our supervisors. Okay, I haven't read that many

Matthew Osborn  
pit bulls like that's really, really small, because like most employees aren't going to read this entire book man for owners, but it is nice. They have a framework of what you're trying to accomplish as an owner. And so I love that idea for that, guys. If you have read, traction, go grab that small book, I just ordered one, it should be on my house sometime soon. I thought that was perfect. I have an employee give them that they get understanding of it too. And you as the business owner can read the full book and get all of it. The

David Chung  
important thing with traction too, I don't want to get too sidetracked. But like traction is really a playbook. It shows you step by step what to do. And what I've realized is it's so important that the entire oriented organization is synchronous with those steps. And if you know, company wide, you're doing the l 10. Meetings level 10 meetings one way but then down on the departmental level, they're switching it up, it doesn't have as much of an impact. And so I think just like having a manual that because like if you're a manager or supervisor or just an individual contributor and accompany you may not be interested in reading a whole book. You just want the meat or the gist of it. And I've even seen one pagers where you don't even need to read anything. You just follow the steps steps for the meter. Yeah, yeah, it's really powerful stuff. How

Caleb Roth  
many times have you read the book?

Matthew Osborn  
This is my second time read. I read it a long time ago. And I was like whatever I started next I really want to implement this just get a structure to weekly meetings, quarterly goals, all that So Brad has implemented it with general air and he's loved it. Daniel stringer guy that runs with Since all here is implemented, and both of them instead has completely transformed their business, just having that structure and everyone at every level on the same page of how every meeting goes, how goals are structured. And so I'm just rereading it right now. So I can kind of be refreshed. Whenever we start next year I start next can really start from ground zero with that philosophy in mind. Do

Caleb Roth  
you read other books more than once?

Matthew Osborn  
Only if I've either liked them in the past and kind of forgotten a lot of what I read, I'll go through most the time. I don't but certain books just, I think warrant reading a couple times. So

Caleb Roth  
Michael, David, you ever read books more than once?

David Chung  
Traction is probably the only that and the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John Maxwell. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Burdell  
Usually just once. I'll come back to one after a decade or something if I kind of forgot or want to go back to it. But I do read a lot of kids books over and over again. Where the Sidewalk

Caleb Roth  
I love Shel Silverstein. That's one of my habits. I'm toying with this year, I almost never watch a movie twice, read a book twice, because there's so many different ones out there. Why would you like go back and read something else? But the reality is we change. So from five years ago, 10 years ago, when you read traction, we're different people, and you're gonna then just naturally soak up different information. And so rather than go after the next, you know, that may just be mostly fluff the next book, why not go back to a classic that you know, is good. Like the one thing that's changed my life? I haven't read it in six or seven years. I should go back and read that because I guarantee I'm going to pick up things that impact me. Yeah, absolutely. That's that's just a side habit note to myself. But I'm curious if you guys have gone back and done that. Yeah,

Michael Burdell  
it's I've seen Breaking Bad twice. Does that count? It does count. Best TV show. It's tough. Everything is like you said everything's competing with our time. It's, it's What content do I want to dedicate time to? I think all our time is really valuable. So it's hard to go back to do something twice. But I do think it's worth it. Especially if it's something that has meant a lot to you. And you've been able to implement change. And it's been a while, go back and revisit. So I want to point out one

Caleb Roth  
thing you just call attention to it again, when you work for Edward Jones. You said you did you checked all the boxes, you did everything they asked of you. You were making 40 grand a year, right? The number and Mike Mike taught me this Mike McCarthy. He's like, what does it cost to be you? What does it cost to be Caleb? And I love that because it breaks it down. I go, I need to make this much money for our family. And then I can easily just look on the scoreboard. Am I making this consistently? If yes, I know great. If not, I need to start changing some things. So you you had a number? How do you apply that today? Running startup? You're still I guess pre revenue you've not made? $1? Right? Correct. So do you have a an end date that if you don't get your first sale? You're gonna you're gonna cut bait, as you called it? Or how do you how do you have those goals right now where it's sort of a nebulous, brand new thing that is the entrepreneurial venture?

Michael Burdell  
Yeah, really good question. So I took two really good like test bullets with two courses. And the first one got shut down due to like ordinances, there was like a specific thing written in their document with the city from 1995, saying you may not ever have like golf on this course. So we worked with like attorneys to over change that worked with the HOA, and the relations between the course and the community. Were very strong. And so it was kind of an angry mob. And they said, No, we're not going to change it.

Caleb Roth  
That's why why that was invented just what clause?

Michael Burdell  
Exactly. And then there's another one that I'm still working with. And it's been equally challenging with the city. But I think we're getting closer and closer. So we've already kind of come and gone from, hey, if this isn't making me money by this date, I'm gonna stop doing it. Because things keep coming up and other opportunities keep presenting themselves. And other courses keep reaching out. And I'm learning more and more. So I'll kind of push the date back. But I'm okay with that.

Caleb Roth  
Did you have a date when you started this in? 2021? Yeah,

Michael Burdell  
it was two years. Okay.

Caleb Roth  
So you said I'm gonna give myself runway of two years, correct?

Michael Burdell  
Yep, got it. And now I'm at two years, and still not making any money, but closer, and I see bigger vision for it and more demand than I originally thought. So I'm gonna give it some more time. I don't know what yet. I'm just kind of seeing how each step goes. And there will be a time you know, I always reflect on this. I'm like, is it realistic? Is this going to materialize? Is this going to be something that's worth doing? And the answer is still yes. And if the answer is ever No, then I'll, you know, seriously put a job search together or reach out to all you guys and say, Can someone give me money to do something, please? But yeah, I think I think it's something that you always have to look at. And again, you know, pay yourself first, or how much does it cost to be you, we're still within those boundaries, we're still meeting our goals. And we're fine for now. So I'll give it another year. And there'll be lots of like, off popping. And there's

Caleb Roth  
a lot of things you don't know starting a business, you don't know what the lead time is, you don't know what the sales cycle looks like. And we get so used to like even on your LinkedIn, it says you've generated over $173 million in revenue since 2015. You're obviously numbers driven, and you're goal oriented. When you run your own business, you can't force somebody to buy like we ran a software company, we can't ever force someone to pull out their credit card and give us their money. Right? So you, what you can do is control the aspects and the habits that are in front of you. So if you reach out to five courses a month or whatever metrics you can control, it's kind of up to the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, and then you just have to understand that industry which you knew nothing about coming in.

Michael Burdell  
Yeah, I think sales is all a numbers game. And I think it's so easy to set goals and see if you're ahead or behind and see, okay, I'm doing my activity, but it's not producing results, what am I doing wrong and get some coaching. Sales is just so numbers driven, that it's a lot easier than a lot of other things to track how you're doing. But it's important, it's important to do that in all aspects of your life, even if it's not sales related, or money related or numbers related. There's other things where you can say, Am I on track? And if not, why, and just reflect on it and pivot, do what you need to do. But yeah, yeah, it's a numbers game. It's been good. And I can't force people to buy it. But there's good demand for it. And I have people reaching out,

Caleb Roth  
I think, work when you're going to change the name from Arizona night golf.

Michael Burdell  
I had a conversation about that yesterday, I think very soon. I think very soon. Just need to set up a new LLC. And if you guys have a good name for me, let me know. I think you

Caleb Roth  
could actually avoid the LLC. I'm not a lawyer, but you can do a DBA. So you could actually keep the Arizona and I golf. And why

Michael Burdell  
do you have to change the name? Because it's Arizona night golf. Oh, national. Oh, okay. So

Caleb Roth  
anybody in the south like Florida and Texas are two of the largest markets, California. And so they're going to be all over it. And if it says Arizona night golf, then they may think it's not for them. Yep. That's

Michael Burdell  
happening. Yeah. So

David Chung  
that's where you could like, just play the opposite, where it's like Arizona, and I golf. And so there's this air of exclusivity to it, where they're like, oh, man, we wish you were in Florida. Well, first of all, that premium is at no charge to you.

Caleb Roth  
I do want to dig in a little bit. So I worked corporate as well, Matthew, I guess you did as well. You worked for general air. David, you've never worked for the man. She has never worked for anyone else. Right? Wow. You are? You are the man. Yeah. So I worked for Johnson and Johnson five years did marketing, product management, product support, sales training. So it was a great thing. And just like you did I live below my means, like Joji talked about, I made X, I spent less than x. And I was able to save that up, which gave me the runway to then start my own business, because I knew that even if for six months, I didn't make a penny, I will be okay. And then at some point, I'd have to, you know, married and I realized that I'd have to go sports family. Yep. You've switched gears several times when I wanted to switch gears and said, Hey, I really identify as an entrepreneur, and it's time to go take that risk. I fought that for probably a year. What will my wife's parents think? What will my coworkers think is what will my parents think? I'm a people person, and so that that I have my own struggles in therapy and whatever to work through there. That decision was so difficult. How have you managed that habit? switching careers multiple times now?

Michael Burdell  
Yeah. So the first one was really financially driven. The second one was just career driven, growth driven. And then I got that MBA and was kind of persuaded to take an interview. And I'm really glad I did, because even though it ended, not the best way, it's really accelerated my path. And then moving into tonight off, it's just something I've always wanted to do was kind of go on my own and start my own business and be an entrepreneur. And I have the sales aspect, which I think is a really good foundation for an entrepreneur sales

Caleb Roth  
will serve you no matter what, right? Yeah. So was there a trigger? Because often people get to the end of the rope and say, I can't do this anymore. I'm stressed out. This is I'm anxious, I can't do this. And they say, I gotta get out. Or the grass is greener. On the other side? This is good. But it could be better. Was there a trigger moment or something that kind of said, hey, it's time to start that search. Yeah. So

Michael Burdell  
this, the nice thing is that we're speaking about how I got there. Even just quitting any of the other any of the jobs, mostly, it was just, this isn't fulfilling for me intellectually anymore, I want to go do something else, or grow or take the next step. And that's always served me well, just kind of being an ambition, ambitious person by nature, but you know, give it a fair shake. I was at all Scripps for four and a half years, that was my longest stint anywhere. I was at optim for three years. And then I was at team, which was that PE owned company for three and a half years. And I've been an Arizona golfer, too. So I'm not trying to hop around every year and say, See, I really, you know, fully dive into a role. And if I think it's time to grow, or I can bring more to the table, then I start to make a move. Is

Caleb Roth  
this part of the goals that you said professionally, you start looking at that and go, Hey, I'm stalling out. I'm not really growing in the professional category.

Michael Burdell  
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's all very intentional. And, you know, it usually happens when I'm reviewing those quarterly or annual goals, when I look personal professional business is something is it still exciting to me? Is it something I still want to invest my time in? And do? Is there something you know, as my toolbox still growing? Or have I kind of stagnated? And do I need to make a move and try something new? So just being opportunistic, I think is really important. And I think it really can serve most people? Well, because most people kind of get into their routine. And you know, this is my job. I've been doing it for five years, and I'm just going to wake up and keep doing it for another five and you know, no reason to make a move. I think it's important to be intellectually stimulated. I think it's important to always keep growing and adding different skills to your toolbox. So that's kinda what makes me make a move. Yeah,

Caleb Roth  
I had a college professor, he said, stay at your current job, no matter what. Until you stop learning. Yeah. Because the minute you stop learning, it's not about the money. It's not about the opportunities. It's like as soon as you stop growing, then it's time to switch because at that point, if you're not growing, you're dying. And I wholeheartedly agree that that

David Chung  
phrase is in traction too? Is it? Yeah.

Michael Burdell  
Was that Kevin Miller? No,

Caleb Roth  
that's his professor. Okay. Mine is actually wrote a book, we should get him on the pot at some point. But he's, it's Roger sticker. He's an accounting professor, one of the one of the best accounting professors. I think Grace College where I went has the number two CPA pass rate in the state of Indiana behind only Notre Dame. Wow. So if that tells you anything about the program, it's great. It's pretty remarkable. Yeah. I'd like to switch gears because we're entrepreneurs. I know a lot of our audience is, but there's also many people that aren't. And so they're, they're listening to these goals. They go, Yeah, that's cool. For an entrepreneur, this doesn't necessarily apply. Can we go to the personal bucket? Yeah. What are some of the personal goals that you've had over the years? How do you know when it's time to change where you're going? Personally? Can we just dig into that bucket a little bit?

Michael Burdell  
Yeah, that's changed so much over the last decade before it was, you know, stop printing and buy a house, things like that all the things you're supposed to do like the cookie cutter, I think like your life's kind of set up for you through high school through college. And then like, you're on your own, you're like, Alright, now what do I do? And so you can either follow like this traditional path of having two and a half kids and a white picket fence and a house. And so a lot of my goals were around that. So

Caleb Roth  
I had this when I got home, my first kid. Yeah, like, there's no instruction manual. You didn't have to pass a test, right? You literally go to the hospital have a baby, they hand you the kid and say good luck. Yep. Keep it alive. It's wild, isn't it? Okay. Same thing when you graduate college, right? Whether that's yourself? Yeah, it's, Hey, your parents had been in charge. you've kind of been had this prescribed path and all sudden, it's good luck. The world's your

Michael Burdell  
oyster. Right? Yeah, yeah, it's wild. So at first, it was alright, here's my personal goals, I want to own a house or you know, be able to afford my first car or whatever the case may be. Now, it's much more family focused, especially as an entrepreneur, I get to create my own schedule. So I have work time, I have family time. But I have two little boys. And my whole thing is there for and almost two. And I just want to help them grow up and be around for like, the formative years and things like that. So most of it is around that stuff. So like, I coach my son's T ball team, and just do things like that. There's personal goals within my family. And then, you know, physical fitness and other things that I have goals for, and I tried to implement and stay on top of. And those are really fun. That's kind of what you know, I think life's so much more than business. And this is kind of an entrepreneur based podcast, but it's about having fun, traveling, seeing the world having experiences being with the people you like. And that's where I spent most of my personal goals around now. So I took a trip with my dad to Ireland, we did a golf trip, I wanted to do that before my dad got too old to walk seven golf courses. So we did that this past May, things like that, just, you know, trying to make life enjoyable and feel fulfilling. Yeah,

Caleb Roth  
I think it's easy to get focused on just one thing, and just say, I'm going to be an entrepreneur or business owner and just do that. And if you do you get myopic, and just kind of focused on that you end up missing the bigger picture. And so many people, Charlie Munger just passed away. And they interviewed him a month or two ago, and said, Do you have any regrets? 99 years old, probably worth, I don't even know more than a billion. It's Warren Buffett's right hand man, so business partner. And he said, I wish when I was in my 30s, or something, you know, when I was younger, I would have caught a 200 pound tuna. He was I wish I had that experience. It's not I wish I didn't make this investment or I wish I bought crypto in 2012. Or it's I wish I had that experience. And so he's had all the business success in the world. And all he wants is his childhood back to go catch a big fish that he was not strong enough to catch it page 99 That's

Michael Burdell  
a cool story. A lot of mine revolve around golf. Like I don't want to get to this number. You know, things like that. Those are fun, personal goals. But yeah, it's it's just taking advantage of the moment in the time and what you can do in the present. I think that's really important. So

Matthew Osborn  
it's like that Mike Mike McCarthy interview when he was talking about their family goals and how like he wants to learn sailing, something he's always wanting to. I feel like all of us have like one random personal goal, we boys tell, hey, this would be really fun if I do this someday. And I feel like just like entrepreneurship that he always itches at you. If you're not pursuing it, I feel like we all have one or two things you've always I really love to do that. I bet that doesn't go away like you say it, but that urge to go out and catch a big fish he's had for a long, long time. He just never pursued it. And so then it's been fun to set a personal goal like the sailing one where you're like, Hey, I've just always wanted to there's no reason why I just think it'd be fun, cool thing to do, and just set that goal because you'll likely still want to do it. 30 years from now, but maybe not as capable then. So

Caleb Roth  
side note on that Mike texted me yesterday. And I was commenting his is the most listened to podcasts, which it was our first episode. So that makes sense. But there's some other ones catching up. But he goes, Hey, I know you're kind of an accountability, buddy. And he goes, I had the sailing thing plans. I had the trip booked and I got sick and I couldn't go on it. And so it fell apart. But he goes, please hold me to it. I'm going to do it next year. So Mike, we're going to we're going to make sure you hold to those learning Spanish

David Chung  
and everything. Yeah, yeah, that's

Michael Burdell  
awesome. What's your guys? Do you guys have one thing that you want to do in your life that you haven't got to yet?

Caleb Roth  
One thing? Oh, they

Matthew Osborn  
they've done their summit. Yeah, we

Caleb Roth  
did Kilimanjaro in March, which feels like forever ago and it was only nine months ago.

David Chung  
Yeah, that was pretty. That was pretty mantis. You know for me, right now like the one thing is for sure, having kids so I don't have any kids yet. And So that'd be my one thing. And I think after that probably having grandkids Yeah, no, that's cool. Yeah,

Matthew Osborn  
I don't think about that. I'm not sure what one major thing I'm kind of always wanted to do a lot to think about that more. But it's something I've been wanting to think about a little more and figure out one or two just personal things, I can pursue just a goal, whether it's a fitness related goal or an event or something like that, where it's not just an endless, I want to get in better shape, hey, let's do this specific event two years from now or do an Ironman or something like that. But I don't know exactly what that will be.

David Chung  
shave half a second off your 40 yard dash. I was gonna ask you to bring your sensors. Oh, I should have

Caleb Roth  
brought those in the sprinting habit. He got the equipment?

Matthew Osborn  
I did. Yeah. That was funny. I'm part of this Amazon influencer program thing, and I got it for free. And so there's like little lasers,

David Chung  
you have to you have to tell the story a little bit like grander than that. So these sensors, it's like springs sensor tracks how quickly you spread. And these are like hundreds of dollars online. Yeah, I charge you to 600. Yeah, they're expensive. They're expensive. And so I saw that online. I was like, I'm not buying that. And that that was it. I moved on Matthew, what did you do? Yeah,

Matthew Osborn  
well, I so I'm part of this Amazon influencer program thing where I can make review videos or product that shows up on the product page on Amazon. And you have to be approved to do that. So there's not a ton of videos. And so products want their products reviewed. And so like I figured out if I reach out to the different companies, if I want a random item, or about to buy something on Amazon, nine times out of 10, they send it to me for free. If I say hey, I'll make a review video of this product. And so once I figured out how much those centers were, I was like, David, like, I'm not spending that for the sense where I was like, when I kind of want to track it like that. I wanted to do frames with videos, I reached out and sure enough, the first companies like sure, we'll send it to you. And so yeah, they sent this out a little later at the start and later at the finish and it tracks it and shows your time the thing took the whole family out and our two year old I think average 18 seconds or four year old is like 12 seconds. My six year old got like eight something seconds. And then my wife and I did it. Your time was really good. It was decent. The only thing is I think I ran too fast. Because now I can't improve. Our goal is to improve the most in three months. And after that like thing I should have ran slower for the first moment. What was your time? It was 5.06 something five point I couldn't break. Five seconds was 5.0 something this is a 44 yard dash. Yeah. Wow. That's impressive. You know, thank you. I'll try and break guys. I have to break five in order to improve upon that. So. But yeah, it was fun. And so a lot of the time you guys with that next time you're out here again, right? That's funny. In

Caleb Roth  
terms of personal goals, I was trying to wrack my brain, I like to do more adventure goals. So do a sprint triathlon, climb a mountain, we're gonna do the triple bypass next year, in Colorado, it's three mountain passes in one day, 120 miles, 12,000 feet of elevation change my brother to I have a twin brother and a brother a year younger. And so we're crazy enough to try. But something that popped into my head was I want to learn Spanish. Yeah, I know, maybe 50% I can get around I can I can operate, I can order food. But I can't carry on a full conversation and I'm a Smart enough guy, I should be able to figure it out. And it opens up so much of the world, Central America, South America, Spain, Spanish is a very common language. And it just shows I have to imagine with Google Glass or something at the AI, it's just gonna be there. At some point, they already have it where I can speak English into my phone, it translates it. But it's so much more meaningful to say I care enough about you to learn your language. That's great. And in our town is 15% Hispanic, like I have tons of opportunity to practice. So I think that's something for me, it's like I just I just gotta bite the bullet and, and set that as a goal. I love it. Yeah,

Michael Burdell  
man, Dryden album, I want to write an album. That'd be fun. I also want to and perform it. Now. Just record it, record it. And then I also want to shoot under par, which I've never done. I've been close, but I've never done it. What's your handle on 18 holes golf, got down to a four and a half. But now it's seven and a half. Okay, but I just start taking lessons from a new coach. And he's really good. And I have the bug again. And I'm, I'm gonna do it. Alright,

Caleb Roth  
we can we can talk after that. I got down to a point five during COVID. I'm back up to about four or five now. And if my golf buddies are watching, I'm an eighth. So I have shot under par three times now. And one was one under and I remember just being so nervous. I had to bogey the last hole and like I was just all over the course and got the job done. And then the next two were both for under rounds. Like at some point it just you just break through, like golf easy. And then the next time you play you're reminded that it is not Yeah, that's great. Well, Mike, I want to be sensitive your time I know you have a tee time. So do thank you for saying yes. Thank you for jumping on the opportunity here really great to hear your story and you've done the most homework of any guests. The fact that you were throwing I see the the all the other themes of old guests. Thank you for doing that. That means a lot and if anybody's listening or watching that owns a golf course and you want to put lights in, reach out to what is the Arizona night golf.com. Yes, you want to leave any other contact info.

Michael Burdell  
I'm on LinkedIn Michael Burt, I'll I'll respond. So if anyone wants to chat let me know but no, really appreciate all you guys having me on. This was wonderful. I love the podcast. I think there's great bits of wisdom in every episode so far. So I'll keep listening and hope everyone else does do awesome

Caleb Roth  
Well we really appreciate it and we'll catch you guys all next week

Transcribed by https://otter.ai